Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 18 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 977



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Close but no cigar on Hal Clement...
Re: Army Bases?
The Imperial Army - IMTU and Canon
Re: Stereotyped Gamers...
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Was gomers now Linguistics in the Far Future
HEPlar lives!
Re: EXN The Exploration Network - Science
Re: Hal Clement...
RE: Speech drift (was RE: Stereotyped Gamers...)
Re: Army Bases?
Re: Squad Leader
Re: Andre Norton Suggestions...
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Elizabeth Moon...
Re: Piper / Hal Clement...
Re: Speech drift (was RE: Stereotyped Gamers...)
Re: Andre Norton Suggestions...
Re: Speech drift 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:33:19 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Close but no cigar on Hal Clement...

On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Diespamer@aol.com wrote:
>
>Both great books, BTW! Clement, for those who are interested, in undergoing a 
>bit of a revivial right now. NESFA Press (the small press "arm" of the New 
>England SF Association) is publishing a three volume set of his stuff. The 
>first volume, "Trio for Sliderule and Typewriter" is out and has "Ice World", 
>"Needle" and "Close to Critical" in it. The second volume, to be called 
>"Music of Many Spheres" will contain short stories by Clement. The third 
>volume, "Variations on a Theme by Sir Isaac Newton" will contain all the 
>"Mesklin" novels and short stories (e.g., "Mission of Gravity").
>
>Volume 2 is scheduled for "late 1999" and Volume 3 is "planned but not yet 
>started".
>
>
Plus a new novel from Tor Books this month:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312869207/qid%3D935011773/002-0850868-2161620

(Half Life)
- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:38:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Army Bases?

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 10:58 AM 8/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Since there is no standard labeling symbol for the hex maps, I'm
> >assuming that Imperial Army bases are usually attached to Scout and
> >Naval bases as ground security and additional ground troops.  Army bases
> >are probably pretty common, although the size of the base may vary
> >widely.
> 
> IMTU:
> 
> The Imperial Army is the combined Armies of the subsectors.  Each Subsector
> raises an Army from the member worlds, and gets Imperial aid to fund and
> equip this force to TL14-15 standards.

I would point out that this often entails recruiting from high
population, low-tech worlds.  The colonial forces, OTOH, are generally
limited to recruiting from the home population.
> 
> The main mission of this force is to defend the subsector, and maintain
> stability.  Due to the logistical nightmare of moving even a single
> division, all but the largest offensive actions are undertaken by the Navy
> and Marines.
> 
> Each world has it's own army, separate from the Imperial forces, along with
> it's Imperial commitment.

This is very similar to a lengthy post I sent a couple of weeks ago. 
The biggest single change I would propose is that there are a number of
small (division or smaller) units that are at the disposal of the Sector
General Headquarters.  This permits the deployment of units larger than
Marine regiments for contingency operations.  (Yes, _I_ grew up in XVIII
Airborne Corps....).  In FFW, this applies to the 8 divisions, 4
brigades, and 4 regiments of the Imperial Army.  The 6 corps and 8 Field
Armies are subsector forces in peacetime.  The numbered colonial units
are, IMTU, similar to the US Army Reserve, while the named colonial
units are equivalent to the National Guard.
> 
> If you're interested, I can send you an extended write-up I did on the
> subject.

I'd like to see it, and compare it with my own views on the subject....

> 
> There was once a time when the church controlled the government. The laws
> of the church were the laws of the land. Belief in God was strong, teachings
> of the church were rarely questioned. This time was called The Dark Ages.

I thought that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages.... ;-)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:23:11 GMT
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: The Imperial Army - IMTU and Canon

Actually, I use the same approach, and I feel I can (arguably perhaps)
remain within 'Holy Canon'.  In my Traveller Universe (IMTU for all those
new folks who may not have learned this one yet!), the Imperial Army exists
only as a cadre structure (Corps and Army-level units only).  The maneuver
units are all pulled in from Imperial Worlds at teh request of the
subsector or sector Duke or the domain Archduke.  For rapid-response, the
Imperial Navy has its Marines, and the local duke/archduke has a Commando
Brigade available from the Corps-level full-time cadre, and perhaps other
forces as well.  Each subsector has at least one IA Corps cadre, and some
have several, with one or two IA Army cadres to boot.  These get combat
divisions assigned to them from the levy that is raised by the
duke/archduke's request.

The levy units are of two classifications: IA-Standard and Colonial.  The
Imperial Army-Standard units adhere to the published IA standards for
equipment and organization.  A planet that has IA-Standard units gets to
pay for them (at least partially) by reducing their planet's contribution
to the Imperial Defense Budget.  The Imperium gets a ready reserve of
properly-equipped troops, and the planet effectively gets top-of-the-line
units for half price.

Colonial units are raised totally at the planet's expense, using local
equipment that may not be quite up to IA standards.  The planet still finds
this advantageous, since he can equip his units from the local economy
without having to meet rigorous Imperial standards.  The Imperium only
calls up high-quality Colonial units, and due to the potential logisitcal
issues these units will often be deployed on worlds with Tech Levels
similar to the home planet of the unit.  However, if needed Colonial units
will be deployed at thefront line right alongside Imperial MArine, Army and
Army-Standard units.

The cadre units fall into several categories:

1.  Special Operations Units (each Corps has a Commando Brigade and a
PsyOps Battalion).  Army cadre includes more of the same, and some more
esotreic units (usually in the company to battalion size range).
2.  Headquarters Units.  Not just HHC, but also communications units,
Military Police Brigades, Logistics units, etc
3.  Specialist Units.  Port Service companies, Engineering Brigades,
PointDefense Brigades, Orbital Transport Squadrons, Medical units, etc.

Probably not the way most people do it, but variety is the spice of life!

Steve Charlton


Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>Ian Ferguson wrote:
>>
>>         In keeping with the "governing the space between the worlds"
>>         philosophy oft alluded to on the TML, IMTU there is no Imperial
>>         Army.  If ground troops are really needed, the Impy Marines are
>>         sent in.
>
>The problem with this approach is that it invalidates the canon relating
>to the Fifth Frontier War.  As I look through TNS entries for that
>period, there are numerous references to Imperial Army forces.  Further,
>there is a distinction in the FFW board game between regular and
>colonial forces.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:13:49 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Stereotyped Gamers...

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>    I think the number of different accents would be staggering.   I imagine
>there would be an easily recognizeable "Core Sylean Dialect" which would act
>as the standard dialect, but there would be hundreds of variations, perhaps
>with a few widespread ones. If a certain region had high levels of
>media-trade and cross settlement there might be a regional (subsector)
>accent, but I think it would mostly be a planet by planet thing if there is
>no FTL communication.

ISTR that the MT basic books had some mention of different regional
dialects (eg Spinward...)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:16:12 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Was gomers now Linguistics in the Far Future

 
A  formal written language can stay stable for quite some time, and can 
be preserved indefinitely, but a living everyday spoken language is 
inexorably bound to undergo sound change,  it is impossible to stop.   
Contact between speaking groups is the factor which determines whether sound

change leads to unintelligibility or not.

Dave Nelson

Hell, look at Kiwi's. I just don't know what's happening half the time. And
of course there's the amusing corruption of sex to six & ten to tin <ducks
to avoid being assailed by 'mob' of our Tasman brothers> 

Ob Traveller; Are translation computers capable of understanding a new
dialect of Anglic? Would it be like a spell checker listing the most likely
possibility when confronted with an undecipherable word (with perhaps a read
out of the other possibilities on a display). That could lead to some
amusing hi-jinks (Trav Merchant Captain; I can't believe it, 14 kilioliters
of gold for just 300 credits, what a bunch of yokels! / Rustic 'back water'
type; I can't believe it, 300 Credits for goln <dung>, what a loser')


- - Michael 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:35:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: HEPlar lives!

I was just reading the October Issue of Analog. In John Cramer's
science column he reports about nifty things from the 100th annual
meeting of the American Physical Society. 

The section on "super lasers" is *very* interesting. They've got a
"modest tabletop laser" with an intensity of 3e17 W/cm^2. And the pulse
duration is 3.5e-14 sec (I get 10.5 kJ/cm^2). Fired into a jet of
Deuterium gas the jet exploded fusing some of the deuterium into
Helium-3.

Apparently the energy in the laser pulse is converted to kinetic energy
in the gas with *high* efficiency, then the fusion adds even more
energy. He speculates about developing this into a propulsion system. 

Sure sounds like Heplar to me! Only a lot less bulky. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:49:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: EXN The Exploration Network - Science

In mail you write:

>>> If you all missed seen this on the tube last night
>>> here's a link that shows NASA attempting to use
>>> liquid( actually frozen) hydrogen as a rocket fuel.
>>> Dave
>>
>>> http://exn.ca/science/
>>
>> They've been using *liquid* hydrogen since the mid 60s. Most of the big
>> brown tank attached to the Space Shuttle at launch contains liquid
>> hydrogen (it's either 2/3rds or 4/5ths).
>>
>> Solid hydrogen would be a problem. Perhaps it's a slurry?

> Actually it is atomic hydrogen. Just plain old H not H2.

Ah! Monatomic hydrogen, akka "single-H" much beloved of Heinlein.

> Let it get warmer
> than 4 degrees Kelvin and it will recombine into H2 while heating it's self
> and the liquid helium that it is suspended in to about +2000 (I seem to
> remember 4000 Kelvin but I'm not certain).

Well, whatever the temp, that recombination will have a higher Isp than
*any* other chemical fuel. By quite a bit. 

The helium will drag down the performance. 

> As a fuel it would be expensive (helium ain't cheep) and dangerous (if it
> gets warmer than 4 K it's going to get REALLY hot REALLY fast).

> Me, I a my M2P3 magneto-plasma sail drive intra-solar/extra-solar probes.
> But for boosting atomic hydrogen might be hard to beat, at least as rockets
> go.

Well, if you check my other posts, you'll find that we may be on the
way to developing "HEPlar" in the real world. Laser initiated, fusion
boosted reaction drive. Wow!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:53:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hal Clement...

In mail you write:

> Greetings, All,
>
> With all the buzz about sci-fi novels from the Golden Age, just 
> wanted to toss out Hal Clement's name, whose novels give some great 
> ideas on new alien races that can be integrated into an existing Trav 
> Campaign.  My two favorites, and I'm hoping I remember them 
> correctly, it has been over 15 years, are:
>
> "Mission of Gravity" is technically flawed in world design, but the 
> race of creatures he describes on the ellipsoid world are very cool.

While "ellipsoid" is technically correct, "oblate spheroid" is a better
description (and Niven's Jinx is a "prolate spheroid"). 

Mesklin is *very* unlikely. But not impossible. If you somehow *did*
get enough mass acuumulated *and* keep that sort of spin, it *would*
lose most of the hydrogen from the equatorial regions. 

> "Cycle of Fire" (?) talks about a world and her large moon, both of 
> which are inhabited by different species which make contact with one 
> another and eventually destroy themselves.

Doesn't sound like the "Cycle of Fire" I recall. As I recall, we had
a world that was either orbiting two stars, or in a very eccentric
orbit. Thus it has long periods of "Earthlike" conditions, and lopng
periods of what we would consider *extremely* hot conditions. The two
species alternate in using the world. The hot cycle species has refuges
in geothermally active areas, the cold cycle species have refuges in
the ice caps (which shrink severely during the hot periods, but don't
go away). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:02:40 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <Paul@Schirf.com>
Subject: RE: Speech drift (was RE: Stereotyped Gamers...)

It seems that we agree that mass media can influence speech... but we
disagree if this is a cause or a cure.  Assuming that many languages formed
during the long night - what is to prevent the use of mass media to slowly
bring those languages back into the "official pronunciation guidelines?"  A
multi-generation plan to adjust the speech patterns of the local residence
could be a semi-hidden part of Full Imperial Membership.

Paul@Schirf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:10:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Army Bases?

At 04:38 PM 8/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

>> The Imperial Army is the combined Armies of the subsectors.  Each 
>> Subsector raises an Army from the member worlds, and gets Imperial aid to 
>> fund and equip this force to TL14-15 standards.
>
>I would point out that this often entails recruiting from high
>population, low-tech worlds.  The colonial forces, OTOH, are generally
>limited to recruiting from the home population.

True, and a major part of my "Clouds of War" campaign..

Kiri and Glenn, DO NOT READ!!

Strouden has close to 80% of Lunion's population.  The Sword Worlds and Ine
Givar are help to stir up trouble between the classes on the planet.  The
idea is to lock much of the subsector's Army in a nasty, N. Ireland-like
confrontation that will fray the combat readyness of the mostly-Stroudenese
Army units.

>I'd like to see it, and compare it with my own views on the subject....

We're you here for the battledress debate?  This is the big article I sent
at that time.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Yfirmaur, Konunglegur Gramm Floti
Srstakur Vitsmunir jnusta
Sameina Her: Rm, Sver Verld Sambandsmyndun
http://Jump.to/SyleaDownport

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:11:41 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Squad Leader

Hiya Peez,

I'm sorry to say it, but all of the materials that I'd used in my 
Traveller/SL game vanished long ago, so I can't give you any details.  I used 
the maps and rules, and made up a bunch of handmade counters.  The player 
characters recieved individual counters, appropriately rated for their skills 
and stats for a result simialr to a hero counter, but with more varied 
morale.  The players were allocated the support weapons which they had (which 
wasn't much).  The locals were generally represented by multi-man counters, 
for example a 3-2-7 might be used to represent 10-15 archers, with individual 
counters for the various local leaders.  It worked out pretty well, everyone 
agreed that this experiment felt more like a real field battle than the 
altrnatives.  I was especially pleased to see that the players had an impact 
on the game, but the locals got their licks in as well.  Two of the eight 
players blundered out into a field into the path of a cavalry charge, and 
were hacked to death by swords in melee combat.  The rest of my memories of 
this experiment have become misty with age.  Get some blank counter sheets 
and give it a try.
   

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:09:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Suggestions...

In mail you write:

> Leonard said :
> ---
> "Star Man's Son" (aka "Daybreak 2250 AD"). It's set in a (very) post
> atomic war future. It'd be nice to for a few ideas on during the Long
> Night on planets that got nuked.
>
> "Star Gate" Good story, but not much stuff useful to Traveller in it,
> except possibly for the idea of the "Star Lords" essentially taking
> over a planet.
>
> "Sea Siege" is *really* dated. But it is a good "as things fall apart"
> story. Might be useful for a "start of the Long Night" scenario. It has
> both pro *and* anti-tech. Basicly, the characters know that t was
> (mis)use of high tech that *caused* the mess. But most of them also
> realize that the high tech gear they still have is a big part of what's
> keeping them alive.
> ---
>
> Those are all winners in my book.  I loved them.  did you try also along
> these lines, "No Night Without Stars" and "Yurth Burden"?

I'm sure I've got "No Night Without Stars". I'm not sure about "Yurth
Burden".  While I probably own them, I haven't read & re-read the post
70s stuff *nearly* as much. So I don't recall it as well. 

Another one that just jumped out at me. "Dark Piper"(?). The one with
the returned war veteran being looked down on, and winding up helping
an an archeological "dig" in some lava tubes. When there's an attack or
some other disaster, he winds up saving the kids who were there on a
field trip. *Definite* Traveller scenario possibilities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:15:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson (shadow@krypton.rain.com) had a few questions/comments...
>
> Thanks for the note about "Ordeal in Otherwhere", I've modified my list...

I note that your "list" doesn't include *any* of the "singleton" books.
That is, the ones with no sequels or super-close ties. 

Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

> I agree on "Galactic Derelict". For those of you who have not read the 
> series, "Time Trader" takes place on Earth, during the "present/near future" 
> when we are still in the Cold War with the USSR. Part of that war extends 
> into time travel. Agents are sent into the past, and part of their adventure 
> involves discovering wrecked spaceships. "Galactic Derelict" has the 
> characters (some old, some new for the book) discover a fully operational 
> starship that they try to bring into the future (their present). However, 
> the 
> engines are activated and they are sent on a trip where they have to learn 
> the controls, learn how to refuel, figure out what stuff in the lockers is 
> edible, etc. A good book. "Defiant Agents" and "Key Out of Time" take place 
> several years later when humans have copied the alien technology and are 
> travelling on their own. "Firehand" is probably most directly a sequel to 
> "Time Traders" and the title refers to an incident in that book.

Galactic Derelict, and the books that follow almost *have* to be the
source for the "Jump tapes" in Classic Traveller. And they make a
*damn* good gimmick for "coming out of the Long Night" type scenarios.

> As for Leonard's other suggestions...I've used a lot of Robert A. Heinlein, 
> Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven, Andre Norton, Poul Anderson (a lot of his 
> stuff!), Hal Clement...the list can go on for quite a while! Someday when I 
> have some of that Free Time that people wish they had more of I'll put up a 
> web page and one of the resources will be books that I've read that would 
> help in a SF RPG campaign!

> The Winston "juvie" SF collection! Man, I've got about 3/4 of them,
> and they are hard to find in good condition (I've got a few without
> dust jackets that you might want Leonard, contact me and I'll forward
> titles to you ).

Will do. Mine aren't in the best of condition. After all, they came
from library sales!

> "Battle on Mercury", "Eric Van Lhin" was a pen name that Lester del
> Rey used (usually by himself, but once he wrote a book with Frederic
> Pohl and they used that name together).

I sort of suspected that it might be del Rey. It seemed like his style.

> Lester del Rey also wrote the "Philip St. John" books ("Rocket
> Jockey" and "Rockets to Nowhere") that appeared in the Winston SF
> Series.

Rocket Jockey was reprinted in paperbacvk in the late 60s or early 70s.
And under del Rey's name. It's also the (obvious) source of one of the
scenarios for GDWs old Triplanetary game.

> I've never been able to locate a copy of "Mystery of the Third
> Mine" or "Stadium Beyond the Stars". "Trouble on Titan" I agree is
> excellent.

I don't recall if I have a paperback of "Trouble on Titan" or not. But
I read all three back in the 60s. 

> In addition to Nourse's "Scavengers in Space", I would also recommend
> several other of his books. He wrote a "Doctor to the Stars" series
> of short stories.

I recall a novel about an alien being the first alien trained as a
doctor by humans. This was in a universe where sort of like Norton's
"Star Guard" humans had been assigned a "slot". In this case "medical
work". 

> I'll have to dig up all the titles that I've used by him and I'll
> post that later...Murray Leinster (I'm reminding myself) also wrote
> some "Doctor to the Stars" style stories that would work,

And many of his *other* stories will work too.

> and of
> course there's James Whites "Sector General/Star Surgeon" series
> (still going strong after what...50 odd years?????). See, I told you
> I could go on and on with book suggestions!

Well, as far as the Winston stuff goes, here's the (partial) list of
them from the dust jacket of one of mine:

"The Ant Men" by Eric North. I think I've seen it once, maybe even read
it. But I'd sure like a chance to read it again just to find out. 

"Attack From Atlantis": Lester del Rey. I've got the paperback.

"Battle on Mercury": I've got the Winston edition. I first read it
around age 8 or so, and then couldn't find it again until my late
teens. I re-read it, and *that* time I remembered the title/author. I
finally found a copy about 10 years ago.

"Earthbound": Milton Lesser. Read it a number of times, as I recall it
was so-so. 'Typical' "boy flunks out of academy, makes good anyway"
plot.

"Five Against Venus": Philip Latham. I read it once, many years ago.
Might be nice to re-read. Note: "Philip Latham" was a pen name for
noted astronomer Robert S. Richardson!

"Islands in the Sky": Arthur C. Clarke. I've got the paperback. This
has been reprinted zillions of times. 

"The Lost Planet": Paul Dallas. No idea. Don't think I've ever seen it.

"Marooned on Mars": Lester del Rey. It's ok. It's also what this list
is on the back of . :-)

"Missing Men of Saturn": Philip Latham. Another one I've read once. I
do recall the interesting point that he (correctly) speculated that
drinking heavy water wouldn't be good for you. 

"Mission the the Moon": Lester del Rey. I've got the paperback. 

"Mists of Dawn": Chad Oliver. Never seen it. 

"Moon of Mutiny": Lester del Rey. I've got it in paperback. 

"The Mysterious Planet": Kenneth Wright

"Planet of Light": Raymond F. Jones.  No idea,.

"Rocket to Luna": Richard Marsten

"The Secret of the Ninth Planet": Donald A. Wolheim. Don't recall if
I've read it, but I'm pretty sure the whole "series" was reprinted.
Probably by DAW books. :-)

"The Secret of Saturn's Rings": Donald A. Wolheim. See above.

"The Secret of the Martian Moons" see above.

I think I'll stop now... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:54:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Moon...

In mail you write:

> Greetings:
>
> For all of those who wrote and said that they had tried or looked at 
> Elizabeth Moon's fantasy and were turned off...try her SF! I was in the same 
> boat, then read a chunk of "Hunting Party" while in a bookstore. 
>
> It is vastly different and much improved in style. I don't think you'll 
> regret it!

Sort of like the difference between Piers Anthony's SF and Fantasy?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:04:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piper / Hal Clement...

In mail you write:

>>From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
>>Subject: Hal Clement...
> ...
>>"Mission of Gravity" is technically flawed in world design, but the 
>>race of creatures he describes on the ellipsoid world are very cool.
>>
>>"Cycle of Fire" (?) talks about a world and her large moon, both of 
>>which are inhabited by different species which make contact with one 
>>another and eventually destroy themselves.
>
>   Piper, "First Cycle", IIRC.

Well, in the case of "First Cycle", it's *not* a "planet & moon". It's
a "double planet". Virtually the same size, and orbiting a common
center of gravity *between* the two planets. 

I think this was an attempt at another of the "Twayne Triplets" such as
Uller Uprising. That's because a nearly *identical* set of planets
shows up in a James Blish story in Analog in the early to mid 50s. I
don't recall the title and my collection is in storage. Worse, U\I only
have one or two out of the *four* parts, and the conclusion is one of
the ones I'm missing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:41:21 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Speech drift (was RE: Stereotyped Gamers...)

In a message dated 8/18/99 9:02:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Paul@Schirf.com 
writes:

<<  A
 multi-generation plan to adjust the speech patterns of the local residence
 could be a semi-hidden part of Full Imperial Membership. >>

    This is certainly possible (compare with the French government's policy 
of favoring the Parisian dialect as "real French" to the detriment of the 
others, thus reunifying France as a linguistic entity).   Once contact and 
central authoirty exists then confluence and spread of dominatn language 
follows.  Over time, contact is always the key to mutual intelligibility, 
without it you don't have it, with it you can.

        Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:52:39 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Suggestions...

>Another one that just jumped out at me. "Dark Piper"(?). The one with

Yup, that's the correct title.  Been years since I read it.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:46:05 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Speech drift 

> From: AveNelso@aol.com
> In any case the depth of disruption and loss of 
> contact over the immense period of the Long Night would unavoidbly cause
the 
> emergence of thousands of new langauges across Imperial Space developing
out 
> of Anglic and Vilani. 

I agree.

A canon statement on languages is in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia:
<quote>
Anglic:  The official language of the Third Imperium.  A distant descendent
of Terran English, Anglic was the language of the Rule of Man (-2294 to
- -1776).  Anglic remained a common interstellar language for trade and
commerce during the Long Night.  Its widespread use on the original worlds
of the Third Imperium made it the natural language when the Imperium was
established.

On many worlds, Anglic is only a second language used for system traffic
control, commercial operations, and interstellar communications.  Anglic is
sometimes called Galanglic for (Galactic Anglic).

The Imperium has not been able to prevent the emergence of a wide variety
of Anglic dialects.  Interstellar communications, holocrystals, and
recordings help to spread a uniform pronunciation of Anglic throughout the
entire Imperium.  Within the Imperium, any Anglic speaker can understand
almost any other, but isolated communities on worlds with little contact
with the interstellar trade lanes shift their speech patterns to form
dialects.  In addition, broad areas within the Imperium have established
their own pronunciation patterns;  accepted dialects include Rim (which
includes Terra), Core (the central region of the Imperium), Riftian (the
spinward frontiers), and Transform (the Antares region).
</quote>

One alternate language that might be kind of fun is a Vilani-ised Anglic,
along the lines of Melanesian Pidgin.  Essentially what you would have is a
vocabulary mostly drawn from Anglic, and a Vilani grammar.  This would be
predominantly spoken by non-Anglic speakers, and would represent their
appropriation of the language for their own needs.  It would make most
sense in a situation where they spoke a variety of languages, with the
"Pidgin" emerging as a common language.  I can't quite work out why they
wouldn't just use Vilani with Anglic loan-words though - maybe Vilani isn't
a "native" language of these people either.  

We haven't got a lot of information on Vilani grammar, unless the
Language/Culture list has created it, so writing this gibberish might be
difficult.  It could be fun to use in a scenario though.  Of course, we
need to remember that the "Anglic" words could well be spelt phonetically,
with a "Vilani accent", so recognising them wouldn't be automatic.  There
may be some "Tok Pisin" somewhere on the Net, if you want examples of how
incomprehensible such a thing can be to a speaker of one of the root
languages.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #977
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